fund raising the really important. we have come to an era where you have so much soft and dark money into the system. really very few races were decided by money anymore. and this race has a structural financial advantage right now for one candidate. that is joe biden. >> all right. jennifer and robert. always good to talk to you too. that is all in on this wednesday night. alex wagner starts right now. >> i don't know, we will be talking about the bibles coming up. >> do you know it's the only one. the only one. >> if you thought it was a donald trump endorsed bible? big news. thank you my friend. d bible? big news. thank you my friend. thank you, my friend. and thanks to you at home for joining me thisfo hour. for years now donald trump has insisted hisw favorite book is the bible. but for years now he's also been seemingly enunable or at least unwilling to recall any of its

specifics. >> the whole bible is incredible. i joke very much say they always hold up the "art of the deal" my seconde favorite book of bo all-time. but i just think the bible is something very special. >> i'm wondering what your favorite bible verses are and why. >> i don't want to get into it because when i talk about the bible it's very personal. >> it means a lot to you -- >> the bible means a lot to me but i don't want to get into specifics. >> is there a favorite bible verse or bible story that has informedha your thinking and character through life, sir? >> i thinkli pane. >> old testament guy or new testament? >> probably equal. >> you might think an aide might slip him a sheet of pattern with something like john 3:16 on it so trump could at least pretend to know something about the

bible. but no. and thatbi reality is part of wt makes trump's latest grift so amazing. >> all americans need a bible in their home, and i have many. it's my, favorite book. we must protect content that is pro-god. we love god, and we have to protect anything that is pro-god. we have to bring christianity back into our lives and back into what again will be a great nation. i encourage you to get this bible. we t must make america pray aga. i think you all should get a copy of god bless usa bible now and help spread our christian values with others. >> now, donald trump hawking bibles while actually never having opened one himself is ironic, butis it is also not ou ofso character. i mean thisut is the man sellin basketball shoes right now and i'm not even sure his three-pointer exists. the reason trump is bible

peddling and the reason it is interesting isn't because of hypocrisy. the reason is because of the fine print. these are the frequently asked questions page on the trump bible. this is the only bible endorsed by donald trump, which may be alarming news, i don't know. but the thing that actually matters here is the very last question on this list. is any of this money from this bible going to the donald j. trump campaign for president? the answer ismp no. despite the fact trump's ad for this bible really feels like a political adfe to make america pray again, et cetera. despite that, money from the sale of these bibles does not go to any political cause. it goes to a politician. it goes to donald trump. according to "the new york times," trump gets royalties from bible performances, which

is partib of a licensing deal through a shell company, so the money is split between this bible company and donald trump. at the end of the day this is really just trump getting his supporters to enrich him personally. and theo h reason i point this september because i care particularly about donald trump making a bunch of money off of bibles. it's because this little shell gamese here is very much part oa pattern, and we're seeing it repeat itself in a big way that could impact the 2024 election. you probably remember back in 2020 after losing the race, trump launched what he called his official defense fund. between election day and january 6th the trump campaign spent millions of fund-raising e-mails to supporters, sometimes as many as 25 e-mails a day. the fund-raising pitch was that the democrats want to steal the election and that this fund needed your money to fight back. trump managed to raise $250 million with that sales pitch.

but there was just one small problem with trump's official election defensewi fund. it didn't exist. >>n' i don't believe there's actually a fund called the election defense fund. >> trump really did raise $250 million, but only a small fraction actually wept towards anything resembling fighting back or challenging the 2020 election. if you20 read the fine print whe donating to trump's official defense fund you learned before a single penny is given to trump's efforts to fight the election results, the first $5,000 donated by any donor is split between the rnc and trump's save america act. in other words, if you sent in $200, none of that would go towards the trump defense fund. now, today "the new york times" is out with a very useful piece showing where all that money did go. and it turns all that $254

million$2 wind fall trump got fm claiming the election was stolen, it turns out trump funneled that money through a seriesy of different accounts like his save america pac. the money was part of a little shell game that ultimately paid donald trump'sat personal legal expenses. he used it to fill the $90,000 a day hole in his pocket from his legal bills he's been incuring in's his various civil legal an criminal cases. that big pot of money, it is nearly gone.y, and now with those coffers nearly run dry, trump is looking for another cash cow. next month he's set to hold a rncto fund-raiser. this is the first major fund-raiser since trump got his daughter-in-law,e laura trump, installed as the cochair of the rnc. and laura trump has made very

clear the rnc will not be paying any of trump's personal legal billes, but again look at the fine print. at this fund-raiser next month the invitation shows the first $6,600 donated goes straight to trump's campaign. and the next $5,000 donated after that go to trump's save america pac, the entity that has been paying his legal bills. so in order to actually get money to the rnc and the rnc fund-raiser you first have to clear yo$11,600 in trump's own piggy banks. it is not as simple as that. it is a shell game. joining me to discuss kristi greenberg who served in the district attorney's office for the southern district of new york. and tim miller.

how can he keep saying one thing and doing another? >> well, i think the big question here will be coordinating between all of this. if there's sufficient yard nagds, you could prove that, then maybe you would have something toen say. these expenditures are not purely personal. these are really campaign contributions, and therefore they should be subject toam the limits ofho $5,000 that campaig contributions aret subject to. again, itbj seems to me like yo said they're just trying to do an end run around these various regulations, and it seems so transparent. the question is will anybody look into this? will any prosecutors look into this? it's unclear. >> can i ask a follow-up because we're on the eve kind of the

stormy daniels hush money case. we're talking about a whopping sum of money here being moved around various pacs and super pacs and campaign arms and republican committees to ultimately help donald trump in his bid for the presidency. do you think the sort of -- the conversation around the justice department being quote-unquote recognized is actually going to steer potential prosecutors off a case like this that seems so much t greater in magnitude tha what's already going to trial? >> well, i mean it feels like it already has because remember jack smith as you pointed out had looked into, had served some subpoenas as it relates to the nonexistent election defense

fund. prps he didn't want to seem as he was training trump of the ability to defend those cases. hard to say, but i question at that time because that seemed like suchca a clear wire fraud case that it seemed like it should be looked into, but maybe they had limited resources and didn't like the l optics of it. i agree with you, this raises a lot of questions. someone, somewhere maybe not the special counsel's office because they're pretty busy, someone should be looking into this. >>ok merrick garland, can you hr us? the other thing i find astounding donald trump makes a point his campaign is predicated on the idea he's so rich, he's a mogul, he doesn't need all this cash. why do working americans, why do trump supporters continue to give him money that is so clearly paying for a legal defense he himself could pick up the tab for? >> goodse question. why do people continue to give money to grifting pastors and

mega churches, too? sometimes people don't like to admit they've been. i think some of it is not just a shell game how he's moving money around through organizations but also he's been honest with the support. this segment is not happening on news max, this segment is not happening on fox. ertainly there are some supporters that recognize their dollars are going to his legal defense fund, his airplane, and fancy dinners at mar-a-lago, and they don'to, care because it's their way to give the middle finger to those they don't like. but there's other people who literally believe the country is under threat, some invasion, and the little $10 donation they give is part of the effort to stop that invasion and support candidates that are going to put in policies they care about. elderly people in particular and

people not internet savvy gettingnt conned because "the n york times" has reported and others where they think they're making oneth donation and actuay they're having a monthly withdrawal taking from their account. this has been happening over and over again. you know, there are plenty of supporters that are getting in scammed, and i think this is potentially a a useful politica issue for democrats because it undermines the core that donald trump says he cares about these people. >> the cases remain ongoing, right? trump seems to drag these trialsute because he doesn't want to actually be held accountable before november, but he's still got to continue paying hisem lawyers. he has settlements and bonds he has to pay up. he has a $175 million bond in tish james case, the civil fraut case. on that ccase, what is your expectations in terms of trump's

ability to pay that without someone else putting a bond down forti him? >> well, he asked for -- when he filed his brief with the new york court of appeals, he said i want $100 million. and so they have now given him $175 million bond. so figure he's close, and 75 million more i would assume he'd probably be w able to find a source of that. be his campaign -- his campaign cannot pay for that civil judgment because that was purely personal conduct. they can pay for campaign finances that related to his conduct in the campaign or officeholder but his campaign can't pay for this. so i think, you know, he really is going to have to find other sources to be able to pay for that. it's just insane to me, by the way, the bond was reduced for him to be able to do this, to go forward with hiss, appeal becau of at the end of the day this was a defendant who went in court andde said his whole defee

was, i'm too rich to defraud because the banks just want to a relationship with me. and my business is good enough. they don't care what's on these financial statements, they justs want to do business with me because i'm so rich.ca and then he just said recently he has $500 million in cash, and then he's stelling the court i can't payhe that amount for a bond, andth then they reduce it without explaining why. and that's just head scratching that a defendant who made that kind of defense, who don jr. basically puton on a time share presentation about the business and every property and all these assets and then, yeah, when it's time to pay up, i can't do it. >> andn' meanwhile trump supporters are starting gofundme pages. it defies logic. the robbing peter to pay paul aspect of all this, funneling money away from his own campaign and down ballot republican so he can pay for his legal defense. i do wonder, you know, when you look at the reality here biden

and the dnc combined cash on handed $97.5 million, trump $44 million. numbers are often abstract especially at that magnitude, but tim, you know from campaigns, that would seem to have a meaningful difference how these twong campaigns can opera in the coming months. >> and there really is a limit to the pot. there's only so many small dollar donors to go around. and trump's campaign month to month is showing him losing ground in small dollar donors in anll election year he should be gaining. i'm a little suspect oftentimes how much marginal differences make on cash in a presidential campaign given the scope of information of how much money is being smept that eventually you get to a point there's actually a meaningful difference. i think for example joe biden's team is on the air right now. they're trying to drive a message about what he accomplished and address some of age question, and donald trump's

campaign isn't because his money is, you know, going to pay a bunch ofow lawyers and a bunch grifters that work for him. i think that is at least on the margins in what might be a close race meaningful. >> you know in a state the republican chair is ringing the alarm bell someone needs ads ipstate, you've got a problem. thank you both for joining me tonight. i appreciate you. coming up, things are looking up for the biden campaign. while the republican party chair in michigan as we just discussed is saying when is the trump-run rnc going to start doing something in this state, anything? we're going to break that down with obama campaign manager david plouffe. that's next. r david plouffe. that's next. to duckduckgo on all your devie

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we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. is it going to be the position of the rnc in 20 the 2020 election was not fairly decided or that it was stolen somehow? >> well, i think we're past

that. i think that's in the past. we learned a lot. the past is the past, and unfortunately we had to learn a couple of hard lessons in 2020. >> stolen election plans, that's all in the past says the new rnc cochair laura trump. just hours after speaking with my colleague garret haake we got this reporting in "the washington post." those seeking employment at the republican national committee have been asked in job interviews if they believe the 2020 election was stolen, according to people familiar with the interviews, making the false claim a litmus test of sorts for hiring. you want to work at the rnc? where do you see yourself in five years? what are your biggest weaknesses? did joe biden steal the election for donald trump inwe'll reach out if we have any other questions. that is how things are going right now for one of the two major parties in the next presidential election. meanwhile, on the democratic side the biden campaign is focused not on the last election but the coming one. and recent polls show president biden gaining ground across the country.

a new bloomberg morning consult poll out today shows biden either tied or leading in the margin of error in michigan, pennsylvania, and wisconsin, all states bidesen was trailing in just a few weeks ago. joining me now is david plouffe, former obama campaign manager and host of the hq podcast. david, thanks for joining me tonight. i was stunned by this warning that the michigan republican party chair issued to the campaign saying they haven't made any significant yeneral election investments in michigan, this is neither the campaign or the rnc. they haven't transferred any moeny into the state. there are no specific programs in place to support voters of color and no general election field staff in place. how meaningful is that from a campaign perspective, david? >> well, he's won races himself

so he knows how to put together a campaign so that's a searing indictment. now, for those who have won campaigns, sometimes it's humbling to admit they really make a difference on the margins. they don't change big things. but the polls you just showed suggest we could be heading to a race let's say 48 to the winner and five thirds to the party. they're not going to get you two dutch downs but they could be worth 1, 2, 3 points. we just heard in michigan one of the six of seven states that will decide our next president and that's not going on. again, it's not going to change

big things. but campaigns matter a lot around the margin, so that's why i think you're going to see increasingly republicans get more concerned. of course it doesn't just affect trump. it really affects down ballot people harmed by his lackadaisical. >> we're talking incremental here, within the margin of error, but nonetheless it does feel like an inflection point. is it the halo effect of the "state of the union"? or is it american voters having better vibes about the economy? i mean how do you look at the landscape there for biden? >> i think it's probably three things, alex. i think democrats and i don't think swing voters but i think a lot of democrats are more enthused now because of the "state of the union" and the president's out there campaigning, number one. number two, i think voters do feel slightly better about their economic situation. and the biggest factor is people are zeroing in on the fact they

want a rematch. at the end of the day there's enough americans out there even if they don't approve of joe biden's performance as president say i can't sign onto four more years of the trump circuits. i think you're starting to see some voters even though it's very, very early, i think you're seeing voters zero in on the fact there's no fantasy here of alternative options. these are two candidates and you have to make a choice. >> to that end politico is reporting biden is pursuing an unusual strategy to remind americans of what was happening four years ago. usually you want to be future facing. relitigating covid doesn't seem like something the american public necessarily wants, but the biden campaign is effectively betting and this is according to politico, that they can turn the issue of covid into a referendum on trump's overall competence, reminding the american public how trump behaved in the emergency. from a strategy perspective, do

you think there is peril in doing that given the anguish and the trauma that i think a lot of people still feel when we think of the beginning of the covid pandemic. >> well, you have to do it carefully. and this is a very unique race. the last time we had two presidents running against each other was 1896 i believe. so it's been a long time. we have two incumbents. and so in that regard, yes, joe biden has to make clear every voter out there and say, yes, if you give me four more years here's what i'm going to do for the economy, a range of issues. why i think this is important when you listen trump talk about his presidency he wants to forget the year 2020 so you can't let him do that. you've got to put this in front of people and say, listen, bad things are going to happen out of our control in the next four years. they just always do. and do you really want this guy who mishandled in kind of a

historically awful way to be back. trump who's more diminished, who will feel even less accountability, who said he's going to surround himself with loyalists. by the way you showed that rnc pledge about the 2020 election. there's no doubt if trump wins they're going to ask the same thing of everyone who works in the government. again, i don't think you want to make it maybe the cornerstone of your campaign, but trump is trying to avoid 2020, and i do think it's important but you can tie that to the future which is here how he acted then, and he's going to do the same thing if he's given the reins one more time. >> remind people he urged americans to inject bleach into their veins. that is donald trump. david plouffe, thank you for your expertise, my friend. it's great to hear from you. coming up, you may recognize this picture of supreme court justice clarence thomas and his conservative buddies smoking

cigars at his billionaire benefactor's lakeside resort but what about this photo from real life? what it says about the state of judicial ethics in our post-roe america is coming up next. post america is coming up next. (man) mm, hey, honey. looks like my to-do list grew. "paint the bathroom, give baxter a bath, get life insurance," hm. i have a few minutes. i can do that now. oh, that fast? remember that colonial penn ad? i called and i got information. they sent the simple form i need to apply. all i do is fill it out and send it back. well, that sounds too easy! (man) give a little information, check a few boxes, sign my name, done. they don't ask about your health? (man) no health questions. -physical exam? -don't need one. it's colonial penn guaranteed acceptance whole life insurance. if you're between the ages of 50 and 85, your acceptance is guaranteed in most states,

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take a look at this photo.

it's a lot like an optical illusion. the longer you look at it, the more you see. there's the supreme court justice clarence thomas right in the middle swearing in his protégé to be a judge on the fifth circuit court of appeals. the judge has his hands on the bible held by his wife allison in his home of his billionaire benefactor harlan crowe. the year is 2018. he would go onto play a crucial role in trying to restrict abortion medication across the united states. not only did he agree the fda restrict access to abortion pills, he was the only judge on that court to conclude right wing doctors suffered injury because women had access to abortion medication. that case went before the supreme court yesterday where even those judges seem skeptical that the plaintiffs even had the standing to bring this case before the court, which make

judge hou's decision there appear that much more unusual. and now we are learning that the judge's wife is linked to what else, the alliance defending freedom. the guardian newspaper reports from 2018 to 2022 that group made at least six payments. he said the money given to his wife was then donated to charity. wherever that money ended up, it does not change the fact the judge who was deciding a court case brought by a right-wing group is married to someone being paid by that same right-wing group. joining me now is melissa murray, professor at nyu law and co-host of the essential strict scrutiny podcast. melissa, thanks for being here. how in heavens is this not a breach of ethics? >> well, again, she is his

spouse. spouses are allowed to have paid income from other sources. this appears to be a series of honoraria. but it does seem odds the judge did not even consider the optics of what this looks like and perhaps thought maybe this would be an opportunity to recuse himself from this particular case, which he did not. of this suggests the thin rule we have for judicial recusal probably need to be beefed up. yowl recall we had all of the supreme court making gestures towards a code of conduct which actually turned out not really to be a code of conduct at all. again, it seems like there's a real need for judicial reform across the board not just at the supreme court but federal courts for toothier rules for this sort of thing. matthew kazmierczak rubber stamping conservative lawsuits

in search of a broader policy change across the country, these judges don't even hide the activism at this point. what is it about this moment in time that licenses them to feel so emboldened? >> one, we have to recall during the trump administration, this election of federal judges essentially outsourced to leonard leo and the heritage foundation which wave heard about before and you've talked about before. those judges were vetted to be movement conservatives. so there's a kind of comfort there. they know the mission, they've chosen to accept it, and they're doing it. this case you just talked about, the mifepristone case was heard at the supreme court yesterday. he was totaledy out there with the view these doctors allegedly suffered. it seems likely the court is going to issue a stern rebuke, this is not the kind of injury they look for these cases.

but the fifth circuit and judges like the judge so extreme when those lower courts are out there truly pushing inenvelope the court can rein in a little, get heralded for the press for their moderation when in fact the court is still moving to the right. >> they shift over two windows. >> over french doors. the doors are wide open, and the court is walking through moving to the right. >> there's also something slightly pernicious in terms of what's happening in the context of judicial appointments. judge hou is so out there it's almost like he's auditioning for a role on the supreme court. like look how crazy i can be. >> i have said this on the show before. if donald trump wins the presidency or any republican

wins the presidency in 2024, clarence thomas and samuel alito, who are in their 70s are very, very likely almost certainly to step down, and when they do you have people waiting in the wings like judge hou who have been auditioning for this. they are auditioning for the next spot on the supreme court to be donald trump's guy going forward. >> it's an audition tape if anything. i want to get your thoughts on the way in which -- these activists cloaked in judge's robes are doing their part to move it forward but not doing a great service. you see these judges whether it's the judge in alabama ruling on ivf or the judge in the fifth circuit ruling on mifepristone, they put into the spotlight these issues of reproductive freedom that may be things conservative activists want but are terrible politically for the republican paert. you see evidence of that last night in alabama where marilyn

lands who's going to be a guest on the lawrence o'donnell show in the next hour, flipped a republican statehouse seat in the state of alabama largely on the issue of ivf. >> the republican party recognizes its domestic agenda is not one that plays well to the electorate. the electorate is far more moderate than what the republican party is doing right now. but that might not matter so much if you have the courts. like the courts are by design a minoritarian institution. the goal on the other side for progressives is not only do you have to win elections, you have to win decisively and turn your attention to rolling back the conservatism of the courts. >> melissa murray, always good to see you, my friend. thank you for your time tonight. coming up republican led border policies are having a devastating effect on migrants seeking asimem in the u.s., and

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today a federal appeals court ruled a hugely controversial texas law knowned as sb-4 must remain blocked while legal challenges against it continue. if allowed it would criminalize

crossing in the border state. it marks an unprecedented power grab at the state level. at the federal level donald trump is also promising if re-elected he too will use local police to arrest migrants as part of his massive deportation plan. >> if they don't go back to our their countries, we will never get back our country. >> migrants who are escaping violence and poverty and political uncertainty often cannot go back home, so what these types of policies do is force migrants to wait in parts of mexico near the u.s. border hoping to one day sort out their immigration status. and their in parts of mexico where dangerous cartels are systematically exploiting migrants with devastating

consequences. this is special report from our msnbc contributor paola ramos, and i want to warn you some parts of the story are disturbing and difficult to hear. >> so we just crossed from texas over. right now we're in the state considered one of the most dangerous places in mexico. now, every single person we've talked to on the ground is telling us the rate of sexual violence against migrants is escalating, increasing, getting worse by the day. we're on our way to a refugee shelter to understand the impact it's having on the migrants crossing from these border towns into the united states. maria, her husband, and their two children say they had to leave guatemala last year after

receiving death threats from the same gang that had already killed nearly half of her family. they traveled north hoping to be near the u.s. border as they waited for their official immigration appointments, a crucial part in seeking asylum. they had no idea the worst part of their journey would take place just feet away from texas.

>> many of the migrants in the shelter have endured similar situations. >> what's happening to these women might not be a coincidence. cartels have developed a systemized method to kid nap migrants on their way to their immigration appointments.

>> doctors without borders has seen this crisis up close. from october to december of 2023 they recorded a 70% increase in consultations for sexual violence compare today the prior three months. the first two months of 2024 they have already seen nearly 70 cases. i just got back from talking to three asylum seekers, and at least two of them had been sexually assaulted. is that what you guys are seeing on the ground, too in. >> yeah, it's true. i mean when we have the consultations our patients also tell us their stories, which are quite traumatizing. >> the violence is creating a new crisis for many migrants, unwanted pregnancies. do you offer pregnancy tests? >> it is part protocol that we follow. it's actually the first medical treatment. >> and does doctors without borders also offer access to

abortion or abortion pills? is that something part of the work you do? >> we're actually very concerned all over the world wherever we operate, we're very concerned about the unwanted pregnancies. we try to ensure services are being offered to the women and also to ensure that they -- we ourselves adhere to the laws and norms of the country. >> what many migrants don't know is that once they cross that border, a line that represents security, dreams, and opportunities, they're walking into the realities of post-roe america. >> msnbc contributor paola ramos joins me next to talk about trump, migrants, and what happens next. stay with us. t happens next stay with us

throughout the years mexican

cartels have leveraged the long waiting periods asylum seekers often face on the mexican side of the u.s. border and today these cartels are increasingly kidnapping migrants for ransom and weaponizing sexual violence as yet another form of extortion. joining me now is paola ramos. it's so great seeing you. you're bringing back stories that are not being told and need to be told as we have this raging debate about immigration and don't actually talk about the people involved here. what did you see on the border in terms of the sexual violence? the story we played earlier was harrowing. and i wonder if you could talk sort of broadly about the picture you saw when you were there in. >> when you think about the women we just saw, i think this image, right, these are women sort of stuck between two wall. on the mexican side of it border they're faced with this incredibly vicious sexual violence, and when you look at the american side of the border they're faced with post-roe

america. so the product of that suddenly you're seeing these growing group of migrant women that are stepping into post-roe america with rape-related unwanted pregnancies. and the reason why and that's what we found in our reporting is because there is this very alarming spike of sexual violence against migrant women, that's something that doctors without borders told us, lawyers are telling us that, activists are telling us and the migrant themselves. cartels has always been a norm. the difference now is that cartels are very explicitly weaponizing sexual violence as yet another form of extortion, torture to get what they want. >> can you talk a little bit about how the cartels functionally operate? >> it's very simple and some people won't want to hear this. the longer migrants wait on the mexican side of the border, the more the cartels profit. unfortunately, cartel violence is very deeply intertwined with

the u.s. -- say failed immigration policy and failed asylum seeking process. this is what happens, right? the cartels have leveraged the very long waiting times that immigrants are faced with on the mexican side of the border because of policies like trump's title 42 remain in mexico, and now biden's cbp 1 application which essentially pushes migrants right now to wait on the mexican side of the border as they're waiting for their immigration appointments. so as migrants wait and as they adapt to the different u.s. policy changes, so too do the cartels. through that time they have developed simply more sophisticated and organized methods of violence. they know the routes, they know the buses. they know when the immigration appointments are. it used to be migrants could just pay with cash when you were held hostage but now you have to pay with your body. >> because you don't have the

cash. >> and that violence is not just more vicious, not more terrifying, but the problem is we are feeling the ramifications of that violence. now we are the ones faced those migrant women car yegg those pregnancies. >> and they come to a state like texas where their options are nil. >> nil, exactly. >> effectively what you're telling me the immigration policy is broken it's forcing these extraordinarily long waiting times. there's no appetite for decreasing those wait times, by the way, on either side of the aisle here in the u.s., and migrants are effectively preyed upon by these cartels. are they -- i mean is there any protection for them? is there any sort of recourse for them as they effectively lie waiting to be preyed upon by dangerous cartels? >> and precisely i think that's something president biden should have done when he vizzed the border. you can say everything you want, talk about policy, but go to the other side and you will see this. i think it's important to understand no matter how conservative you are at the

border, no matter how hard you want to, you know, make it for these migrants to the come to the u.s., that only benefits the cartels. migrants will continue to come. the type of desperation we saw on our screens, gnat is not deterred by policy debates, it's not. people will continue to migrate north. so what do you do? >> the desperation is so acute, and it is driving people to do things that are debasing their own -- that force them to debase their own humanity, and we're not looking at this, we're not talking about this at all. your reporting is really so essential. i'm so grateful for everything you do to shine a light on this. really important stuff. thanks for making the time tonight. that is our show for this evening. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. rnc ai